Sajid Javid, Simon Hart and Theresa Villiers interviewed for IfG's Ministers Reflect

Former chancellor Sajid Javid, former chief whip Lord (Simon) Hart and former Defra secretary Theresa Villiers have all given candid interviews about their time in the May, Johnson and Sunak governments to the Institute for Government for the IfG’s Ministers Reflect series.

The interviews, which include Sajid Javid’s views on Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, Simon Hart’s recollections of whipping Rishi Sunak’s Rwanda legislation, and Theresa Villiers’ accounts of trying to frustrate Theresa May’s Brexit deal, are published today.

In the interviews:

1. Sajid Javid says that he resigned as chancellor because “I just thought, I'm not going to be chancellor in name only. I'm not going to be a puppet.”
2. Sajid Javid says that he told Boris Johnson that “Dominic Cummings is running rings around you, and you can't even see it.”
3. Sajid Javid considers David Cameron to be the most effective of the prime ministers he worked with, whereas Theresa May was “very indecisive” and Boris Johnson “probably the least well briefed”.
4. Simon Hart criticises the Welsh government for blaming every problem on “a lack of funding from the UK government.”
5. Simon Hart reflects on how close they were to a “fuck up” during the passage of the Rwanda legislation when Sunak’s government came “perilously close” to collapse.
6. Simon Hart describes the way governments rely on whips, as “the temptation was to just leave anything which didn’t have a natural home to be dealt with by the whips.”
7. Theresa Villiers reflects on her return to government under Boris Johnson, noting that “I'd assumed that I'd had my one shot at government.”
8. Theresa Villiers talks about the challenges of managing relationships with farmers, given “it's a sort of eternal truth that they're frustrated with what governments do.”
9. Theresa Villiers explains how important rebel WhatsApp groups were during the Brexit process: “They were absolutely pivotal to the informal whipping operation which defeated Mrs May’s exit deal three times.”

Highlights include:  

Sajid Javid

Sajid Javid, chancellor under Boris Johnson, reflects on his resignation from the role after Johnson asked him to fire his special advisers: “It’s not why I was in government, even though being chancellor was the one job I’d always wanted in government, before I became an MP. I just thought, I'm not going to be chancellor in name only. I'm not going to be a puppet.”

Sajid Javid on talking to Johnson about his relationship with Dominic Cummings: “I did say to the prime minister at the time ‘You realise you're the actual puppet here, right? Dominic Cummings is running rings around you, and you can't even see it’. At the time, he couldn't see it. He denied it and said ‘That’s not the case. You don't understand him. You've got him wrong.”

Sajid Javid on telling his wife he’d resigned: “I walked up to my apartment. My wife just thought I'd been reappointed! I said ‘Right, can you get the dog and the bags? We're going back to our house in London before the press get there’. She said ‘What?’ and I said ‘I just quit.’ She couldn't quite believe it!”

Sajid Javid reflects on the prime ministers he worked for: “David Cameron was the most effective in my opinion. Out of the three, he did the job in the way I would have thought the job should be done in terms of making decisions and getting things done. Whereas I'd say that Theresa May was very indecisive and used to let meetings go on and on and on…Boris Johnson was probably the least well briefed and probably of the three took the least interest in most things.”

Lord Hart

Lord (Simon) Hart, Wales secretary 2019-22, on relations between the UK and Welsh governments: “there was a lot of politics involved, and it was frustrating which probably contributed to my scepticism about the model of devolution that we were exercising. Put in its crudest sense - every problem that Welsh government encountered, they attributed to a lack of funding from the UK government.”

Lord Hart, chief whip 2022-24, on the challenges of whipping the Rwanda legislation: “There was a moment in the in the passing of the Rwanda legislation when we came perilously close to an almighty big fuck up, if I could put it that bluntly. We were so close to the whole thing collapsing and with it, the potential of the government collapsing.”

Lord Hart, on how governments rely on whips: “it's very easy to say ‘Oh the whips will deal with that’. And to a great extent, the whips do deal with literally everything else, good and bad… the temptation was to just leave anything which didn’t have a natural home to be dealt with by the whips.”

Theresa Villiers

Theresa Villiers, environment secretary 2019-20, on her surprise at Boris Johnson asking her to rejoin the government: “Well, what surprised me was not just the choice of department, I was also surprised to be back at all. I'd assumed that I'd had my one shot at government. I was delighted to be given the environment brief because it's something that matters to me personally”

Theresa Villiers, reflecting on the government’s relationship with farmers and the NFU: “They are highly effective at making the point that farmers do a crucial job. It's a difficult job and we need to recognise that and look after our farmers. There's so many ways in which Defra and the government obviously drive them mad. Farmers being farmers, it's a sort of eternal truth that they're frustrated with what governments do.”

Theresa Villiers, on the importance of WhatsApp groups among backbench MPs: “Those groups did have a phenomenal impact during those Brexit years… They're very influential. They were absolutely pivotal to the informal whipping operation which defeated Mrs May’s exit deal three times.”